Protein and Insulin

[Leonie]

Somebody has just put forward the argument (AGAINST Atkins), that protein causes a higher rise in insulin levels than carbs. She said, for example, that fish causes a bigger spike than popcorn.

Try as I might, I cannot find the scientific vocabulary to refute this. What I am thinking is that protein is used for growth and development, whereas the glucose from carbs is used primarily as energy, excess being shuttled to fat cells.

Am I right in saying this? Does anyone know about the 'protein sparing' effect of Atkins I believe I have heard anywhere?

[Sherrie]

Thats why you need to becareful of protien intake, you still have relatively high protien but not over say 150g a day as any excess protien will be converted into energy which ofcourse will take you out of ketosis.

The protien sparing effect of atkins is when your body switches over to using fat for energy. Theres heaps of info on that here, do a search on Jespers posts.

[Leonie]

Thanks matey :).

[SandyJ]

Insulin is not involved in the metabolism of protein at all so how can protein cause a rise.

Insulin is only involved in the metabolism of carbohydrate.

Or at least that's what the text books tell me.

"The beta cells of the Islets of Langnahans in the Pancreas produce the hormone insulin which acts to lower blood glucose levels. Its chief physiological action is opposite that of glucagon. Insulin decreases blood sugar levels in several ways. It accelerates the transport of glucose from the blood into the cells, especially skeletal muscle fibres. Glucose centry into cells depends on the presence of insulin receptors on the surfaces of target cells. It also accelerates the conversion of glucose into glycogen(glycogenesis). Insulin also decreases glycogenolysis and gluconeogenesis, stimulates the conversion of glucose or other nutrients into fatty acids (lipogenesis) and helps stimlate protein synthesis." Principles of Anatomy & Physiology, Tortora & Anagnostakos

[Sherrie]

Have a look at Jespers posts of when excess protien is converted into energy Sandy.

[SandyJ]

Sherrie is this what you are referring to?

*no longer working*

I understand this but I am fairly certain insulin is not involved as the conversion of protein to glucose occurs in the liver. And then only certain proteins are converted into glucose some are converted into fat and this happens when other energy sources are used up.

[Sherrie]

No that is not the one. He has said a few times that if you consume too much protien the excess will be used as fuel. I'll try to find a post.

[Sherrie]

Here is one:

*gone*

[SandyJ]

Thanks Sherrie. I had actually read that before but I think Jesper must have changed his thinking on this.

The Fatlocity programme has had me on 140-150gms of Protein for six months and I don't do excessive exercise (lol) (Rossana's ROFL).

I think the bottom line is, if you are in calorie deficit the body will use up all circulating available energy sources then it goes for the stored energy sources.

And even if you do have a glucose surge from whatever source and you get the attendant insulin surge....that is what is supposed to happen. It only becomes a problem when there is insulin resistance from the cells and if you have been low carbing for a bit that will gradually decrease because you generally run insulin low and the cells aren't being constantly beaten up by it.

[Sherrie]

Maybe he has, from his posts it's not a problem when under 150g a day, which you are.

Anyway it really only matters if we're having trouble losing weight and/or maintaining ketosis. :)

[SandyJ]

The wt has slowed even though I am still in ketosis but I think there are two reasons for this.

1. I don't do enough exercise to create a big enough calorie deficit for the wt loss to be obvious/fast enough.

2. As I nudge double digits I think I need a new pfc....but I'm not hassleing Rossana till after next weekend when.......

She can hassle me in person about my execise and I can hassle her in person about a new pfc.

We have promised to only hit each other once.

This woe is a wol for me so I'm not fussed at how slow the wt comes off....it will happen....the laws of mathematics and physics apply to everyone.

[Sherrie]

You also have a thryoid problem, I think you've done extremely well.


We have promised to only hit each other once.

Hehe give her a hit for me too, tell her it's a congratulations hit from me :D

[SandyJ]

Rossana has done an amazing job with my thyroid. Despite supplements I used to be always cold with a metabolic rate below the measureable scale.....I could put on wt on 800 cals.

Anyway you can imagine my horror when she wanted me to eat 1700 cals but I had to eat every four hours that I was awake. When I was on nights I rarely ate...just drank full caf coffee....and lots of it. Oh the evil things we used to do to our bodies.

Now I have a full meal and two snacks at work.....another logistic nightmare I had to work through.

The upside is now I am only cold when everyone else is cold (my husband wants to know who this new woman is) and we have a plan to actually get me off the Thyroxine by kick starting the thyroid back again (I still have it....as opposed to those who have had it removed).

To explain....When your thyroid dies and you are given a Thyroxine supplement it only replace the lost hormone. It actually only replaces T4. The thyroid is responsible for other aspects of metabolism but this supplement addresses the life threatening aspects.....and really that is all the main stream medical profession are interested in.....you won't die now and who gives a rodent's rectum that your metabolism remains stuffed.

So the best plan is to try and resuscitate your thyroid. If I am successful I will tell more.

Sorry Sherrie.....I digressed to a soap box.

[Delia]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SandyJ
[
The upside is now I am only cold when everyone else is cold (my husband wants to know who this new woman is) and we have a plan to actually get me off the Thyroxine by kick starting the thyroid back again (I still have it....as opposed to those who have had it removed).]

I have been on Thyroxine since I was 13 (40 years) I have never heard of a kick start to get off of it. I still have nine also.

Can you tell me some more please.

[worpec]

I will watch for more info on the Kick Start also. I have Hashimotos Disease and although I still have my shrivelled up Thyriod it is only there for show (and its good looks!!!!) I havent really understood the benefit of taking Thyroxine other than it stops me from developing into a sloth, that would eventually kill me. That explains why my metabolism is still so bad and my hair is still falling out after 10years. I have a feeling that my doctor knows as much as I do (which up until now was very little) Although there are a few good sites dedicated to Thyroid diseases now.

[Leonie]

Just to refer back to the original post, I think the part that struck me was that it was claimed protein can cause MORE of an insulin spike than carbs. I realise too much protein is bad, but surely if you consume 100 calories of protein compared to 100 calories of carbohydrates (simple OR complex), the insulin reaction to the carbs would be greater?

Does that make sense?

[SandyJ]

Sorry Leonie....we digressed.

The operative word here is excess protein. Protein is not a first choice for fuel and has a host of other functions to perform before there is any question of some left over to be burnt for fuel. Then it has to be converted to glucose.......and then......you get the insulin spike to move it into the cells. Protein per se in its basic just metabolised forms is under no governance from insulin until it has been determined that there is an excess.

So I think you can successfully tell your protagonist that they are talking through their hat.....and ask them to prove their argument as yours is based on text book fact.

[SandyJ]

For Delia and Worpec and anyone else who is hypothyroid. The resuscitation of my thyroid is in its infancy. My completely stuffed metabolism has been turned around but I think that occured as much from years of low fat, low cal dieting as the hypothyroidism.....though I am encouraged by some other signs....like cold tolerance. My metabolism is still sluggish so we aren't bouncing off walls yet.

I am still taking thyroxine. When I am off it and have a normal TSH then I can tell you what I am doing. At the moment there is a touch of pie in the sky....and a touch of hope.

BTW I am doing this....I am not under any medical supervision except my own. What I am doing has to be done under close medical supervision.

Rossana is only responsible for helping me to kick start my metabolism. And that is easily explained. Eating well above your basal metabolic rate and eating often....oh and exercising often. If I am a little slower in the wt loss dept than I should be at the moment, it's because I haven't been exercising as much as I should.:rolleyes:

[Leonie]

Thanks Sandyj- she actually quoted a textbook to reference her claim, which is interesting.

[Sherrie]

Yeah that does sound interesting Leonie.

[SandyJ]

Originally posted by Leonie
Thanks Sandyj- she actually quoted a textbook to reference her claim, which is interesting.

Leonie I would be interested to know what the text book was. All we may be dealing with here is an interpretation of fact. And of course there are text books and text books.....the world has moved on since text books recommended that the patient should be bled to remove the malignant humours.;) :p

[Leonie]

Well for those interested here is what she quoted:

" Popular books and news stories have encouraged individuals to avoid carbohydrate-rich foods, suggesting that high-protein foods will not stimulate insulin release. However, contrary to this popular myth, proteins stimulate insulin release, just as carbohydrates do. Clinical studies indicate that beef and cheese cause a bigger insulin release than pasta, and fish produces a bigger insulin release than popcorn.13

Holt SHA, Brand Miller JC, Petocz P. An insulin index of foods; the insulin demand generated by 1000-kJ portions of common foods. Am J Clin Nutr 1997;66:1264?76."

I should add that this woman, from the heated arguments I have had with her, has very little knowledge about atkins and just assumes that it will cause cancer, bowel problems, you name it. I tend to take what she says with a grain of salt, but it would be interesting to look this ref up.

[SandyJ]

Hmmm....interesting. I think what is not taken into account is that insulin is sometimes, in some people, released in the anticipation of having to deal with carbs.

We know this because an insulin surge has been measured when people drink sugar free soft drinks. And it doesn't happen with everybody.

So how could such a "text" book be accurate.

Maybe that is more the "angle" you should take if you ever want to speak to this person again.

From what I can gather.....they are the ones with the problem. .... forever trying to turn you to the path of rightousness when their perception is merely a regurg of what is fed to them by the mass media and of course BIG business.

You, Leonie are the one who is prepared to THINK and analyse what might be fact and what might be fiction and what is the motivation behind certain philosophies.

[Leonie]

rom what I can gather.....they are the ones with the problem. .... forever trying to turn you to the path of rightousness when their perception is merely a regurg of what is fed to them by the mass media and of course BIG business.

Exactly what I think. I don't know why I waste my time, as it is obvious these prejudices are ingrained and people will not open their minds.

I don't even need them to advocate Atkins as a WOE, I am all for each person eating the way they want, but it irks me when people advise others against doing Atkins because it does all these terrible things to your health.

Anyway, onward and upward (and the scale downward ;)).

[SandyJ]

YEAH!!!:D :D :D