Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

I've been doing a lot of reading lately and I'm a bit confused as to what I should be aiming for to keep my blood sugars in check and lose weight.
I read somewhere that I should be looking to get most of my carbs from
Eggs, Veges, Cheese, Nuts & Cream
I need to keep my calories down as well as my weight has gone back up to 96 :eek:
Even though I've been keeping a diary I'm still feeling pretty lost with it all and some good guide lines will really help me re-focus.
I'm thinking about 1500 cals a day - would that be to high?
How much meat should I incorporate?

Sherrie - I'm on my 2nd day without caffeine - feel really spaced out, and headaches.
Mood wise not feeling so angry and aggressive but depression seems to be deepening. I'm lost as to why the depression is getting worse and has anyone found any connection with it to eating LC.

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

Just looking at calorie king and doing some figures and don't understand the difference. Why would a whole egg have less carbs in it than just the yolks?

.................................................. ................................Cals..Fat..Carb
2 large egg yolk (17g) of Eggs: Chicken Egg, yolk, raw, fresh .108...9....1.2
2 extra large Chicken Egg (53g) of Eggs: whole, raw, fresh.....151.10.7..0.3

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

Crazy!

Janal 1500 calories won't be too much. Put it this way I got all the way down to 55kg on 1500 calories and exercise and I am 161.5cm tall so it was a pretty decent calorie limit and should have eaten a little more to support my exercise.

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

Oh and Janal some say that too low carbs can interfere with serotonin production and be a problem for those susceptible but there is a lot of controversy around that and you're diabetic!

Also eating too little can be an issue as well.

Have you ever visited the Dr Bernstein forums? You might find some useful info there being focused on diabetes but make sure to share it here too as it may help others like yourself.

There is a thread here somewhere on depression and one on serotonin which should have some useful information for you.

Oh and also are you on metformin? I was reading something where too little carbs and metformin can cause hypoglycemia, hypoglycemia might explain some of your symptoms as well. I think the suggestion for low carb and hypoglycemia was 50g carbs but check on the diabetes forum as well and see what they say.

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

Can't help much with the depression issue sorry but as far as carbs and diabetes go I can :)

While I was taking medication I checked my BSL after every meal to make sure I wouldn't be going too low whilst low carbing. As my levels got lower I decreased the amount of the meds until I was on nothing! I stuck to 20gms carbs every day (still do) and just adjusted my medication to suit this.

There is a great Atkins book written for diabteics - I can't remember the exact name but I think it's called The Diabetes Revolution. It was written after Dr Atkins death by 2 of his colleagues - it was the book that got me to where I am so far.

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

Sherrie, Janal has been doing a great job keeping a track on her glucose readings, so I think we can rule out hypoglycaemia.

I'd also like to ask why you are giving up caffeine? Do you think this has been an issue for you? Going cold turkey would doubtless give you some withdrawal symptoms if that is the case which might last a week or two - and I guess only then could you see whether it was worthwhile.

If you need to keep a check on calories to lose weight or to maintain weight loss (and most of us do) then the cheese, nuts and cream need to be kept within reason. Meat OTOH is a great part of a low carb lifestyle and tends to be more self limiting.

On the depression side, I really doubt that low carbing would have anything but a positive impact. How are you going with the fish oil and, yes, the exercise!!? I know it sounds way too simplistic (and it is, on its own) but endorphins are pretty powerful drugs :p and just by getting out there will definitely give you a boost.

Shez, I'm glad you got so much from the Atkins Diabetes book ... personally I thought it was very disappointing ... but IMHO Mary Vernon has gone on to do better things since;).

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

You are probably right but I guess what I meant was it was a great book because it brought me to low carb in the first place. If I hadn't read that book I wouldn't have had the same understanding that I do today of why this diet was the best for me :) I have since devoured many other books on the subject too :D

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

Ah, well that would explain it. I came to low carb through an article on paleo eating which just got me reading more too. By the time I read Mary's book (yes I've forgotten the other guy as well) I had already read a lot of books and I didn't think it added much, and from memory it (like so many other low carb books) was really poorly put together. I think there is still room for a diabetes book - Bernstein is great but probably not something with mass appeal.

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

Hey Janal I have been trying to do searches on the Bernstein forums to see if I can find anything but their search engine is hopeless. However I was just looking through their FAQ forum and there is one on thyroid which I wonder could be your problem?

This is the link here to the thread on their forums: http://www.diabetes-book.com/cgi-bin...num=1174941978

There is an interesting thread near the top that I have just started reading on the thyroid and low carb, not many people discuss this as it is controversial in low carb circles so I found it interesting. There is some suggestion that in susceptible people that extended periods of very low carb may have an impact on the thyroid. I don't know if you have been very low carbing long enough for this to be a possibility but who's to say there wasn't already a problem? Have you ever had it checked?

Here's the link: http://www.diabetes-book.com/cgi-bin...num=1173966395

At the same token none of this may be an issue but something to look at as only you know how you're feeling.

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

Hi All, Thanks for the input and support.

Hey Sherrie, joined Dr Bernstein's forum and been reading lots there and will check out the links you posted. :)
I have had the thyroid checked and it always comes back within normal limits but "on the low side" so the doctor says.
My sister and my daughter both have a under active problem so it looks as though it's in the family.

Malcolm, My Dr told me when I was first diagnosed that she didn't expect I would have trouble with lows, and I haven't. If my sugars are in the 5's I'm reasonably happy but when they start shooting up into the high 6's I get really upset because I'm trying so hard to keep them down and I haven't changed any foods or cheated and don't understand why. So frustrating.
Thought I'd give caffeine a miss for a while and see if it was the reason for my sugars going up. So I gave away the caffeine and also had a day eating high fat, low calories & carbs. I wanted to do a couple of days of it but only lasted until the evening meal, ate to much for dinner but the next morning my weight and sugars were back down, so I think it did some good.
I'm very unmotivated as far as exercise goes and don't know how I will be able to change this factor, I know I need to, but I so often feel like I have chronic fatigue + this spaced out feeling isn't helping.

I know it will pass, and I'm just hoping that if I can continue to lose weight I might find the motivation to do some walking.

Thanks Shez for your input, you've done so well, I can only hope to do the same.

Cheers

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

Ah it's a horrid feeling isn't it? I still have to force myself to exercise to be honest :eek:
The only positive I can say here is that it REALLY does help in the control of BSL and in weight loss. I now actually enjoy the feeling I get after I have done my exercise even if I don't want to start in the first place.
Try to include incidental exercise so you don't really notice it. Walk further to the shops, bus etc. I sneak exercise in by bushwalking places on the weekends or taking the dogs for a walk. If you tell yourself it's not exercise it doesn't feel like it is :p
We are going away on a short holiday in the morning to Uluru - I have booked lots of walking tours around the Rock/Kings Canyon/Kata Tjuta, that way I'm having a holiday without (hopefully) blowing the diet budget.
Good luck with it all and remember there is always someone here for support - I love this forum for that reason:)

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

Hey just noticed you've lost over 10 kilos!!! That is so good - double digit weight loss:p

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

Janal what is low normal? Snez used to be told that too but ask her how that worked for her!

Do you have any idea what your reading is? Could you ask to get it checked again and then ask for a print out? Does your doc know about your daughter and sister?

One of the biggest give aways of hypothyroidism is depression and lack of motivation, that coupled with your "low normal" and your family history makes you a pretty good candidate IMO

We've got some thyroid threads here that you may be interested in as well. I would seriously go get it checked again if at the least to keep an eye on it or for peace of mind.

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

high 6's arent bad - shouldnt beat yourself up over it
remember normal range is about 4-8

exercise is hard to get into but walking with music may help lift the depression a bit

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

I'll find out my figures next time I see the Doc & see when I'm due to have it rechecked.
Thanks again everyone.

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

All I need is a ballroom/Latin partner, that would solve my exercise problems :D
Love my dancing! once you've danced these styles it's just not the same dancing without a partner. :(
DH won't be in it - sooky la la :rolleyes:
Any takers ?????? :p

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

The Eades don't think its an issue:
"The fact, acknowledged by Bernstein and the Eades that after a long time low carbing many people require thyroid hormone supplementation is worrisome."

I panicked a bit when I read this Jenny and sent an email to The Dr Eades' asking them about their acknowledgment of that theory (I hope you don't mind) and I have had a reply already, as follows.

Dear Ms. Szemere,

That statement is totally false, for our part; we can't speak for the
Bernstein half of it, however. We have never implied, acknowledged,
or quite honestly ever even heard of such a thing. If anything, low
carbing improves thyroid function and in our experience, we've seen
quite the reverse of what that statement says--ie, that people who
have required supplementation may no longer need it. That's neither
to say that some people who require it coming in may not need to
continue supplementation, nor that some may not develop thyroid
problems unrelated to their diets at some later time.

Cordially,

The Drs. Eades

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

I think if we do develop an under-active thyroid its not because of low-carbing per se but what we are consuming when low-carbing. Perhaps replacing normal flour with soy flour and eating too many cruciferous vegies like brocolli, cauliflower, cabbage (in their raw state) as they are goitrogenic - affect the thyroid.

From Georgette on the Bernstein site:
"Diet can play a role in thyroid disease, but in my opinion, it is more likely foods found in the high carb, low fat diet that plays the biggest role. Many seed/kernel foods have antinutrients (in the bran part) that can: affect thyroid function (even without the gluten being a factor); and interfere with mineral absorption (which can affect many different body functions). But, also, strawberries, raw veggies of the cruciferous family, excess protein consumption, and other foods can adversely affect thyroid function.

Iron overload damages the thyroid, as well. Liver impairment affects thyroid function. Women low in progesterone and too high in estrogen can have impaired thyroid function."

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

Did you read further into that thread where Jenny was quoting comments by Eades from 1999. Don't forget he has books to sell.

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

Yeh, I read further. It seems to me that going too low in calories is more the trigger. I don't like to think low-carbing - can do that. I think its worth looking into the possible mechanics - if it is low-carbing - why - what exactly happens to lower thyroid?

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

Sherrie, did you download the Lye McDonald pdf on Ketogenic diets. He has this to say about thyroid and low carb:

Affecting thyroid levels
"A fourth possible mechanism by which ketosis may reduce protein breakdown involves the thyroid hormones, primarily triiodothyronine (T3). T3 is arguably one of the most active hormones in the human body (42-44). While most think of T3 simply as a controller of metabolic rate, it affects just about every tissue of the body including protein synthesis. A decrease in T3 will slow protein synthesis and vice versa. As a side note, this is one reason why low carbohydrate diets are not ideal for individuals wishing to gain muscle tissue: the decrease in T3 will negatively affect protein synthesis.

The body has two types of thyroid hormones (42). The primary active thyroid hormone is T3, called triiodothyronine. T3 is responsible most of the metabolic effects in the body. The other thyroid hormone is T4, called thyroxine. Thyroxine is approximately one-fifth as metabolically active as T3 and is considered to be a storage form of T3 in that it can be converted to T3 in the liver. T3 levels in the body are primarily related to the carbohydrate content of the diet (44-46) although calories also play a role (47-49). When calories are above 800 per day, the carbohydrate content of the diet is the critical factor in regulating T3 levels and a minimum of 50
grams per day of carbohydrate is necessary to prevent the drop in T3 (44,48,49). To the contrary, one study found that a 1500 calorie diet of 50% carbohydrate and 50% fat still caused a drop in T3, suggesting that fat intake may also affect thyroid hormone metabolism (50). Below 800 calories per day, even if 100% of those calories come from carbohydrate, T3 levels drop (47). Within days of starting a ketogenic diet, T3 drops quickly. This is part of the adaptation to prevent protein losses and the addition of synthetic T3 increases nitrogen losses during a ketogenic diet (1). In fact the ability to rapidly decrease T3 levels may be one determinant of how much protein is spared while dieting (51).

Hypothyroidism and euthyroid stress syndrome (ESS)
There are two common syndromes associated with low levels of T3 which need to be
differentiated from one another. Hypothyroidism is a disease characterized by higher than normal thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH) and lower levels of T3 and T4. The symptoms of this disease include fatigue and a low metabolic rate. The decrease in T3 due to hypothyroidism must be contrasted to the decrease seen during dieting or carbohydrate restriction. Low levels of T3 with normal levels of T4 and TSH (as seen in ketogenic dieting) is known clinically as euthyroid stress syndrome (ESS) and is not associated with the metabolic derangements seen in hypothyroidism (1). The drop in T3 does not appear to be linked to a drop in metabolic rate during a ketogenic diet (17,52). As with other hormones in the body (for example insulin), the decrease in circulating T3 levels may be compensated for by an increase in receptor activity and/or number (1). This has been shown to occur in mononuclear blood cells but has not been studied in human muscle or fat cells (53). So while T3 does go down on a ketogenic diet, this does not appear to be the reason for a decrease in metabolic rate."

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

I think I have all his books except one somewhere.

Remember when I was researching very low calorie diets? there was one study that I posted about once at the time, and in there was a comment about low carb and hypothyroidism with reference to some studies.

I will look into this some more, I was talking to Regina about this a while back (not in a diabetes POV or low carb causing hypothyroidism but just following low carb diets with hypothyroidism) and she also thought the same thing and mentioned that there were some good discussion on ALC about this as well. I think her conclusion was that people with hypothyroidism should have a minimum of I think it was 40-50g. I also read some interesting stuff on LCF some time back and the common recommendation I saw was 30-40g.

I recall reading that carbs actually give the thyroid a bit of a boost, this is one of the reasons for refeeding/carbups etc. When I used to do the refeeds I would get hot from all the carbs.

I'd imagine low carb VLCDs would be a double whammy. At the same token when I was researching VLCDs I found a recent one that was suggesting a link between very low calorie diets and diabetes, apparently this is common in anorexics?

Now obviously there's many benefits to low carb diets and on a paleo perspective, they didn't have to worry about losing lots of weight but rather the opposite. Whilst eating very low carb for extended periods of time was ideal in many ways it doesn't make it ideal from a weight loss POV, this is something relatively new, yes?

Anyway, I would rather low carb then low fat any day but my take on it is rather then doing extended induction (e.g. 20 - 30g per day) like I did the first time (and subsequently diagnosed with a goiter) you should do induction for 2 weeks and then work on moving up the carb ladder like suggested in the book but without all the grains etc.

Now from a diabetes POV, very tricky because its a double edged sword, if it is true can diabetics handle say 40g a day?

Of course at the same time one common thing on low carb diets and hypothyroidism is goitrogens (soy, broccoli, cabbage etc), so that can't be ruled out either, having said that I took all goitrogens out, introduced iodised salt etc and it never improved my situation with the goiter though I don't know how easy it is to turn that around?

I have been reading up some more on iodine today, I am going to see about getting my levels tested as well as my T3 levels which has never been checked and see where that leads, if anywhere.

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

I am another one who has done the rounds of doctors and specialists with my thyroid and basically I was told I have borderline low thyroid and to come back every year and get it checked because eventually I will need the meds. I also have a goiter and what they called "cold" nodules on my thyroid.

All this was about 4 years ago when I was at a low mentally and physically and living in a remote area. It was totally exhausting just getting to and from specialists - all for nothing. I haven't been back since but I guess I should probably try again soon, my impression is that most drs know very little about thyroid.

Anyway I have noticed that the "cleaner" I low carb the better I feel and my goiter decreases in size. Sometimes I wonder if caffeine and artificial sweeteners are a problem for me too.

I avoid soy, don't go overboard on the broc/cauli and have just started taking coconut oil and liquid iodine.

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

Bec I know exactly how you feel, not one doctor cared about why I had a goiter, and my doc would just say let's weight and see what happens and when it gets too big we will take it out! :eek:

By the time I was 3 months pregnant with Maya I had bad sleep apnea, I gained weight very quickly (around 30kg) but I would've only been in my early 60s at most by then yet when I would ask the antenatal doctor about it she would just fob it off with I must be eating too much! :rolleyes:

I did see an endo just after I fell pregnant (bad timing) but he just fobbed me off with "you have chronic fatigue"

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

Hey Janal, what about putting on some good upbeat music and just dancing? I was always too shy to tell people this here so your special lol but when I lost my weight the first time, that's what I did for my cardio, it was fun, it would get my heartbeat up and I could just do it forever.

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

Are you on meds or anything now Sherrie?

I think when I do decide to go back for another round of tests I will try and research a bit and find a Dr who knows/is sympathetic about thyroids. I have the advantage now that although still in a rural area I am much less isolated than I was.

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

No I am not on anything. My TSH was always good.

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

That's interesting Sherrie. Do look into it more - as will I.
Very interested especially since I am hypothyroid and something to consider when I recommend a diet plan to someone in the clinic.

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

Well yesterday I broke my diet not a little but a lot for the first time since being diagnosed back in April with T2.
I was at a Birthday BBQ and had 3 Vodka Cruisers (full sugar), probably a handful of corn chips and small slice of chocolate cake.
About an hour after the cake I thought I would check and see what the damage was and was so surprised when I got a return reading of 5.6 !
I was 5.2 before the cruisers 5.6 after everything and still 5.6 - 2 1/2 hours later.
Where as I'm not complaining but just very interested in others opinions as to why my sugars didn't go up.
Any ideas ???

I've been managing to take the Magnesium 2 or 3 times a day and does anyone know if it thins the blood?

Also my sugars seem to be better since taking it regularly, coincidence or is it actually helping ????

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

Perhaps your tolerance is just improving over time on low carb?

Not sure about magnesium but fish oil thins the blood. Are you still having coffee?

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

See this:
The link between diabetes mellitus and magnesium deficiency is well known. A growing body of evidence suggests that magnesium plays a pivotal role in reducing cardiovascular risks and may be involved in the pathogenesis of diabetes itself. While the benefits of oral magnesium supplementation on glycemic control have yet to be demonstrated in patients, magnesium supplementation has been shown to improve insulin sensitivity. Based on current knowledge, clinicians have good reason to believe that magnesium repletion may play a role in delaying type 2 diabetes onset and potentially in warding off its devastating complications -- cardiovascular disease, retinopathy, and nephropathy.

http://www.mgwater.com/diabetes.shtml

Some articles say its possibly an effective blood thinner. It does work as a vasodilator of blood vessels (increases/relaxes the diameter of the blood vessels so blood flows through more smoothly.

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

Thanks Snez, :)
Interesting article, a lot of it is over my head but I got the general gist.
Cheers .....Jan

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

Oh I hope so...... and yes I'm still off caffeinated coffee. Head has cleared finally :D

Gee I wonder if it's OK to be having the magnesium & fish oil if there both thinners.
As I prick my fingers for the BG readings I've noticed it with the magnesium but I've been off the fish oil (just keep forgetting to take it)
Could this be of concern for women who have a heavy period but I did read somewhere about the magnesium being helpful for PMS

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

Might be something to keep an eye on Janal!

I get almost immediate effects from the fish oil which I think is circulation related. I am a bit wary of having too much now since I bled out during my cesarean but there could be other factors involved too such as the hormones they were pumping me with in their efforts to induce me. I took fish oil off and on during my pregnancy and remember times where they had a heck of a time getting blood from me but then I remember when they were trying to put drips in me etc and blood kept spraying everywhere! Mind you I was taking magnesium during my pregnancy as well hoping it would help my restless legs, not sure if I took it right through or not, can't remember now.

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

Hey, I have restless legs too :rolleyes:
That'll be a bonus if it helps in this area.

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

Never helped me I'm afraid. I have been getting them lately too but when I was pregnant it was constant. I remember one thing I was reading at the time suggested iron deficiency so perhaps I need more red meat.

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

Oh I have been reading up a bit more on thyroid stuff and I don't know why but had a look at the Atkins book to see what he says about it and though some might find this interesting in light of the previous discussions in this thread...

This it the 2002 edition page 187:

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

Very interesting - I'll have to pull my book out and reread it I think

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

I would like to know more about this, and one thing in particular is that I run hot, I do not get cold.
I mentioned it to my Dr and she suggested using a thermometer at those times and seeing if I actually have a raised body temperature.
Anyone have any idea if this could be caused by thyroid ?

Re: Diabetes - What to eat ?
 

Not sure Janal, but when I was pregnant I ran really hot. Hubby would have to rug up in so many clothes beacuse I couldn't stand to have a heater going at all. It was the middle of winter in Sydney and the only thing I would be wearing was a t-shirt. Wonder if there was some connection there with food/diabetes/hormones :confused: