Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

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    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      Thanks for the link to this article Sherrie. Oh boy I wish more people could wake up to the fact that it is all about governments using fear to milk us of more money!

      Our own Australian government is doing its best to get rid of farmers while at the same time selling our coal etc cheap to the chinese. When our farmers are sent broke and are gone there will not be cheap food in Australia :mad: . Other countries will sell their food to us at expensive, inflated prices :mad: . Groceries and produce only come into a country cheaply if there is a local market to compete with.

      There are so many scientists that disagree with the global warming claims (well, I think it is now called 'Climate Change' as they recognise that Global Warming is not happening).

      Rest assured Low Carbers - this way of eating is friendlier on the body and the environment! I remember being shocked when we first started low carbing 6 months ago as we suddenly had very little household rubbish! Our rubbish bin gets very little packaging in it these days as we use lunch boxes to take lunch to work and meals are always made with fresh food. Low Carb = minimal plastic packaging etc. Oh, and notice that you almost never... break wind :p! How environmentally are we fellow low carbers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D
    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      Low Carb = minimal plastic packaging etc. Oh, and notice that you almost never... break wind ! How environmentally are we fellow low carbers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


      Must have slipped a bit while on my soap-box... my last sentence should have been, 'How environmentally FRIENDLY are we, fellow low carbers!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      Oops, we want it to make sense now, don't we? :o
    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      Yes I am quite sceptic that we are causing it, I believe that the weather ebs and flows all on its own. A lot of Aussies blame it for our water issues, but really our water issues are simply due to population, there's just too many of us using it and on top of that as our population booms we push the farmers out further back where there's typically less rainfall so we can build our housing estates on the prime farmland etc
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    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      On plastic I want to try to eventually get rid of plastic, I am slowly turning to glass jars etc Freezer bags are so handy though for freezing etc, I am not sure how I go in regards to freezing foods. It's not really because of environmental issue but more due to health as I don't think plastic is very healthy for food storage as a lot of chemicals leech into the food. Acidic and fatty foods are the worst for storing in plastic as they are like a magnet for these chemicals.
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    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      A couple more articles:

      Climategate U-turn as scientist at centre of row admits: There has been no global warming since 1995

      The academic at the centre of the ‘Climategate’ affair, whose raw data is crucial to the theory of climate change, has admitted that he has trouble ‘keeping track’ of the information.

      Colleagues say that the reason Professor Phil Jones has refused Freedom of Information requests is that he may have actually lost the relevant papers.

      Professor Jones told the BBC yesterday there was truth in the observations of colleagues that he lacked organisational skills, that his office was swamped with piles of paper and that his record keeping is ‘not as good as it should be’.

      The data is crucial to the famous ‘hockey stick graph’ used by climate change advocates to support the theory.

      Professor Jones also conceded the possibility that the world was warmer in medieval times than now – suggesting global warming may not be a man-made phenomenon.

      And he said that for the past 15 years there has been no ‘statistically significant’ warming.




      Read More



      Another:
      World may not be warming, say scientists

      The United Nations climate panel faces a new challenge with scientists casting doubt on its claim that global temperatures are rising inexorably because of human pollution.

      In its last assessment the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) said the evidence that the world was warming was “unequivocal”.

      It warned that greenhouse gases had already heated the world by 0.7C and that there could be 5C-6C more warming by 2100, with devastating impacts on humanity and wildlife. However, new research, including work by British scientists, is casting doubt on such claims. Some even suggest the world may not be warming much at all.

      “The temperature records cannot be relied on as indicators of global change,” said John Christy, professor of atmospheric science at the University of Alabama in Huntsville, a former lead author on the IPCC.

      The doubts of Christy and a number of other researchers focus on the thousands of weather stations around the world, which have been used to collect temperature data over the past 150 years.

      These stations, they believe, have been seriously compromised by factors such as urbanisation, changes in land use and, in many cases, being moved from site to site.


      Read more here
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    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      So what do they do now? They have these taxes and money making making schemes in place and no evidence....Oh, thats right - there wasn't any in the first place!!
      And scientists that speak out are losing their funding for speaking the truth.

      The world doesn't change.
    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      I'm a labor voter but the whole climate change just turns me right off voting for Rudd again. And Rann, well I can't say I am inclined to vote for him either :o
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    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      I don't understand it. A scientific concensus that AGW is happening with science stretching back to the 1850's (when it was first discovered CO2 was a greenhouse gas and what that means) but all of a sudden governments want to try and do something about it (albeit poorly with a poorly implamented tax) and it's all baloney?

      I have a few scientist friends and I can tell you they ain't living the life of the rich heh, there's no big scientists conspiring with governments to make money. First of all scientists really don't make that much money compared to what they could be if they'd turned that mind to something more capatilistic. Grants don't always stretch to playboy bunnies, yachts and Porsches :D and second ... have you ever tried to keep a secret? I don't know about you but if I tell 3 friends a secret it gets out now imagine that multiplied by thousands and thousands and thousands. They really ain't conspiring.

      I got a few pragraphs in and saw the googley eyed nutter Lord Monckton mentioned and couldn't go any further. If you want to listen to him you should listen to his other ideas such as :

      AIDS sufferers should be locked up in camps.
      He has invented a cure for AIDS, Cancer and a few other things but he "can't release it just yet"
      He called people murderers for trying to have DDT's usage stopped.
      He thinks there's a secret society that are running the entire globe that wants to kill off 80% of our population.

      Generally this guy would be lughed off as a bad joke but because he's a good showman, well spoken and is taking up the easy opinion we suddenly give him creedence.

      The IPCC has been 99% correct and 1% incorrect, the denialists have been 99% incorrect and 1% correct, there's a massive concensus agreeing that climate change is real, is happening and we are adding to it.

      Woah, what a first post back (hai guys ha ha).

      Edit: Err, just noticed this thread is a year old. Woops.

      I really should update my sig.

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      The post was edited 1 time, last by Charlie ().

    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      Welcome back Charlie :)

      I don't doubt climate change is real (I just call it mother nature) and I am all for most environmental issues but in regards to climate change I just think it's going to happen anyway like it has many times before us.

      Taxing the &^%* out of us will not make one iota of difference other then lower standards of living even more. Not only that, how can anyone give credence to a government for protecting us with a so called necessary evil (carbon tax) whom are at the same time signing huge mining contracts with China whom happen to be the worlds biggest polluter.

      I don't know why it is people accuse "denialists" of not believing in climate change? I don't believe that is the argument here.
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    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      Sherrie wrote:

      Welcome back Charlie :)

      I don't doubt climate change is real (I just call it mother nature) and I am all for most environmental issues but in regards to climate change I just think it's going to happen anyway like it has many times before us.

      Taxing the &^%* out of us will not make one iota of difference other then lower standards of living even more. Not only that, how can anyone give credence to a government for protecting us with a so called necessary evil (carbon tax) whom are at the same time signing huge mining contracts with China whom happen to be the worlds biggest polluter.

      I don't know why it is people accuse "denialists" of not believing in climate change? I don't believe that is the argument here.


      Scientists also believe it is ever changing (though Monckton likes to say they don't), I don't think I've ever seen any of them write or say that we are causing 100% of warming. They say that is does run in cycles but that we are adding to its effects. It's gotten a bit warmer and cooler in the past sure but we didn't have billions of people to support who expect to live in and be able to grow food in areas like we do in Australia which may run into issues. It's a fact that CO2 is a greenhouse gas, it's a fact the globe is getting warmer and it's a fact that humans are releasing mass amounts of carbon from where it was stored.

      An AGW denialist is by definition someone who (I don't like that believe word when used with science but it's unavoidable ha ha) stoutly believes that human's are not causing any damage to the climate. There are sceptics, scepticism is a great thing, scientists love scepticism ... sceptics aren't quite sure just yet so they want to test the science and educate themself before (until?) they make their mind up and become a non-sceptic.

      I just see that an "AGW Believer" would welcome with open arms news that the science is wrong and that coal and oil are great if the facts were presented.

      I see "AGW Denialists" as people who will stoutly deny that it's happening to their death no matter what evidence is presented to them.

      Yeah the 'cap and trade' looked like a terrible idea but I think there probably needs to be some sort of strong leadership and most likely some sort of tax and insentive system or we'll never change. The problem is it's being dragged away from science and into the realm of politics where instead of debating the merits of the science it's now debated on ideological beliefs. Albert Einstein said about 100 years ago “This world is a strange madhouse. Currently, every coachman and every waiter is debating whether relativity theory is correct. Belief in this matter depends on political party affiliation.". Pretty deja vu :)

      PS. It has been warming since 1995, that other article was heavily reliant on a misquote and cherry picked data. In fact 2000-2009 was the hottest decade on record and the warmest 12 month period on record was June 2009 to May 2010.

      skepticalscience.com/images/Total-Heat-Content.gif
      skepticalscience.com/images/GISS_1995_2009.gif

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    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      I equate taxing on carbon the same as taxing on smoking or taxing on pokies, stamp duty yada yada... just another massive cash cow and because they will have that massive cash coming in they will make sure that it stays!

      In regards to CO2 emissions, what about volcanos? or what about the fact that not enough CO2 will also cause climate change?

      Just think of how many lives and health issues would've been saved if the government just banned cigarettes many many years ago instead of taxing it? (not that I am saying we should ban coal but rather making a point on how useless the tax is)
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    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      Sherrie wrote:

      I equate taxing on carbon the same as taxing on smoking or taxing on pokies, stamp duty yada yada... just another massive cash cow and because they will have that massive cash coming in they will make sure that it stays!

      In regards to CO2 emissions, what about volcanos? or what about the fact that not enough CO2 will also cause climate change?

      Just think of how many lives and health issues would've been saved if the government just banned cigarettes many many years ago instead of taxing it? (not that I am saying we should ban coal but rather making a point on how useless the tax is)


      Yeah, but it did make people quit/cut back and on the upside (if we have a honest government at the time) they can put the dollars they get into helping people become carbon nuteral. I'm not saying there should be a tax as that's the only way but I think there needs to be something drasticish as all the talking hasn't done much.

      There are natural carbon sources and natural carbon sinks, volcanos would fall into a natural source, there are other places that suck up the CO2 and store/convert/recycle it. Think if it like a glass, nature filled it 4/5th's and it was fine and operated fine as a glass then we came along and want to put another half a glass of water in it.

      Volcanos emit next to nothing compared to us anyway, humans emit 100~ times the CO2 volcanos do. Volcanos put out 60-300 (300 being a very large one going off for a while) million tonnes, humans 29 billion tonnes.

      Us putting out less CO2 causing climate change would be admitting us putting out too much would cause it :D Nature produces (well ..releases) a lot more CO2 than we do, it's just there's limits to how much it can re-absorb and thus how much goes into the atmousphere and stays there(for a time).

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    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      I can sit at a train station/bus terminal in likely any poor suburb here and see young kids smoking away. The tax does not do anything for those that really can't afford it, heck at least with the dishonest ones it likely creates more issues in regards to theft/assaults to help pay for them!
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    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      Sherrie wrote:

      I can sit at a train station/bus terminal in likely any poor suburb here and see young kids smoking away. The tax does not do anything for those that really can't afford it, heck at least with the dishonest ones it likely creates more issues in regards to theft/assaults to help pay for them!


      It's still dropped from almost half of all Aussies to less than a quarter and the money raised has probably helped pay for the inevitable medical treatment rather then dipping into everyone else's tax or raising it across the board to pay for. I haven't noticed any difference between poorer/richer people from working in the city and living in a pretty broadly ranging area though this is just observed and doesn't really prove anything. Kind of like going "oh it's cool today in this one bit of the globe I am at the moment, climate change must be wrong" :D

      I'm not argueing that we should just 'tax everyone up the hilt for using coal' like I said the cap and trade idea isn't the best. Cap and trade lends itself to having industry setup around it leeching money out of it to get rich without any real change but there's surely something that can at least start to be done, there's a tipping point and the longer we wait the more likely it is to be unmanagable.

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    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      The issue with using tax is that the government will like the money too much and therefore will not want to see it stopped. Smoking is a prime example of that. All these taxes do is raise the poverty level.

      As for carbon, electricity is already over priced, normal average consumers are already reducing their use as much as they can and the ones that can afford are buying solar etc

      But the simple fact is that we are providing more and more coal to the biggest users so there's just going to be more and more emissions from those countries but of course we will be the ones paying the taxes in our electricity, food, services, every single thing that is essential and can't be cut back on....


      Climate change is happening anyway all this tax will do is make this time of change even more miserable for us.
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    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      We've experienced our development through burning our share of coal and as such I think other developing nations should at least be given the same chances. I think we need to move beyond the "but they're doing it why can't I?" as much as we need to move passed the "but why should I? They're not!" one.


      We can either spend some bucks for our children's future or hold it all and depart the earth having lived the good life leaving our children a possible horrible inheritance.

      Edit, one could argue that coal energy and petrol is far under priced if we're so reliant on it.

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    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      Hi Guys,
      I understand your frustration on the climate tax at an individual level but remember the polluting companies can only pass so much onto the consumer before people look for an alternative supplier - this forces them to innovate to cleaner greener energy which will be cheaper for us all down the track. Yes, the transition is painful on our hip pockets but wealthy aussies will invest in solar etc and make it cheaper for the poor and middle class.

      If you look at the framework proposed it isn't really a carbon tax at all - the price is only fixed for a short period of time after which it floats and the scheme becomes that of an emissions trading scheme which would facilitate rich countries like us in supporting poor nations in their development. Worrying about a couple hundred dollars on our electricity bills is really nothing - you really need to understand how rich we are in comparison to most of the world. Our "poverty" is laughable to the developing world.
      Developing countries like China have money pouring in for clean energy schemes (under the Clean Development Mechanism of the Kyoto Protocol) as developed nations endeavour to offset their emissions. In a sense we are falling behind much of the world in the green technology sense despite having such abundance of options and we need to kick start the process.

      The price of non-action is HUGE - just have a look at the Stern Review as an economic analysis and compare it to the latest Garnaut update. You think paying a tax is expensive. Wait till we have to fork out BILLIONS of dollars for the millions of climate refugees, for the crops that fail, adaptation of infrastructure etc. and you'll realise that anything we can do towards mitigation is a saving and the proposed tax is tiny..

      I know you are going to argue that Australia's tax isn't going to stop climate change and you're right - BUT Australia emits more per capita than any other nation on earth and that is terrible especially for such a naturally blessed nation in relation to wind, solar, wave, geothermal etc. When you look at what went on at Cancun, Marrakesha and Copenhagen you realise that we are being begged by other countries to make a stand. We're doing this for political reasons too - the world's top polluting nations want to go with these changes but won't do it alone. If some of the richer nations take action then it can convince other parliaments to do so too - the US congress needs some international pressure placed on it.

      PS. The EU have had a ETS for ages and they are doing just fine as will we, just as we did with the introduction of the GST.
    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      Cheaper? Just like privatising Electricity and bringing competition was going to make it cheaper? water? gas? all much, much, more expensive.
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