Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

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    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      Heres a very detailed document that explains his arguments, it was quite an interesting read though long. I will start looking through his references tomorrow.

      Is the Western Climate Establishment Corrupt?
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    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      An interesting article about a book written from a retired Chief Research Scientist within the CSIRO. He gives a different perspective of how it is within the CSIRO, and from what I have read so far from his experience he is liking it to a religion, I am going to buy his book and have a read:

      Accomplices in deceit
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    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      Another retired Chief Research Scientist of the CSIRO:

      Dr Art Raiche, Retired CSIRO Chief Research Scientist
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    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

    • Labor censors Dr Dennis Jensen — denies peer reviewed science

      A interesting speech in parliament by Dr Dennis Jensen (scroll down for speech) which was published for us to see on JoNova:


      Labor censors Dr Dennis Jensen — denies peer reviewed science


      The Labor Party claim they think science is important:

      ”We can’t let this debate be waylaid by people who don’t accept the science,” Ms Gillard said in May.


      Yet, when Dr Dennis Jensen wanted to table peer reviewed papers on the Parliamentary record this week, Kate Ellis refused to allow it. Jensen is the only PhD scientist in the Australian Parliament and the papers are directly relevant to the policy under discussion.


      The ALP will accept an unaudited foreign committee report, whole, without question, but not scientific evidence from an elected Australian representative. Who are the climate science deniers? Is it the same team that calls people mindless denigrating names?
      Ms Gillard said in Parliament in March that Mr Abbott should admit he was ”a climate change denier”


      The Labor Party denies the science

      From Dennis Jensen’s press release about the censorship:


      “I approached Minister Ellis, about tabling some of the scientific evidence I was about to use in my speech”, Dr Jensen said.
      “The Minister refused without reason my simple request for honest and evidence based parliamentary debate.”


      “It seems the Labor Party is unwilling to allow frank and open debate on the science of climate change, which underpins the whole framework of this legislation.”


      “I currently hold the highest scientific qualifications of all the MPs and Senators, and was hoping to shed some scientific light on this debate”


      Dennis Jensen wants to talk about the evidence:


      I would happily debate the science with any member opposite

      but I know they are too gutless to take me on.”

      All the Labor Party posturing about science is disingenuous.
      The papers that Labor won’t allow Dr Jensen to table:

      Webb, A.P., Kench, P.S., The dynamic response of reef islands to sea-level rise: Evidence from multi-decadal analysis of island change in the Central Pacific, Global and Planetary Change (2010), doi:10.1016/j.gloplacha.2010.05.003 [PDF]
      Lindzen, R. & Yong-Sang Choi, Y, (2011) On the Observational Determination of Climate Sensitivity and Its Implications, Asia-Pacific J. Atmos. Sci., 47(4), 377-390, 2011 [PDF]
      Remer, LA, Kleidman, RG, Levy, RC, Kaufman, YJ, Tanre, D, Mattoo, S, Martins, JV, Ichoku, C, Koren, I, Yu, HB, Holben, BN (2008). Global aerosol climatology from the MODIS satellite sensors. JOURNAL OF GEOPHYSICAL RESEARCH-ATMOSPHERES, 113(D14), D14S07. [PDF]
      Kaufmann, R.K., Kauppib, H., Mann, M.L., and Stock, J.H. (2011) Reconciling anthropogenic climate change with observed temperature 1998–2008 PNAS 2011 ; published ahead of print July 5, 2011, [abstract] [PDF]
      Trenberth, K.E., and Fasullo, J.T. (2010) Tracking Earth’s Energy, 16 APRIL 2010, VOL 328, Science[PDF]
      Spencer, R. W.; Braswell, W.D. (2011) On the Misdiagnosis of Climate Feedbacks from Variations in Earth’s Radiant Energy Balance, Remote Sens. 2011, 3, 1603-1613. [PDF]
      Allan, R. P., and B. J. Soden (2007), Large discrepancy between observed and simulated precipitation trends in the ascending and descending branches of the tropical circulation, Geophys. Res. Lett., 34, L18705, doi:10.1029/2007GL031460.[PDF]
      HOUSTON, J.R. and DEAN, R.G., 2011. Sea-level acceleration based on U.S. tide gauges and extensions of previous global-gauge analyses. Journal of Coastal Research, 27(3), 409–417. [PDF]
      Holgate S.R. (2007) On the decadal rates of sea level change during the twentieth century GEOPHYSICAL RESEARCH LETTERS, VOL. 34,
      Katsman, C. A., and G. J. van Oldenborgh (2011), Tracing the upper ocean’s “missing heat”, Geophys. Res. Lett., 38, L14610, doi:10.1029/2011GL048417. [PDF]
      WATSON, P.J. (2011). Is there evidence yet of acceleration in mean sea level rise around mainland Australia? Journal of Coastal Research, 27(2), 368–377. [PDF]

      Dr JENSEN (Tangney) (12:33): Speech to Parliament

      I have been dreading this moment since I first became interested in the science of climate change and anthropogenic global warming, and particularly since the Prime Minister misled the Australian people by saying that there would be no carbon tax under the government she led. As the only PhD qualified scientist in this parliament, I have watched with dismay as the local and international scientific communities and our elected leaders have taken a seemingly benign scientific theory and turned it into a regulatory monolith designed to solve an environmental misnomer. With a proper understanding of the science, I believe we would not even be entering into this carbon tax debate. To put it simply, the carbon tax, with all its regulatory machinations, is built on quicksand. Take away the dodgy science and the need for a carbon tax becomes void. I do not accept the premise of anthropogenic climate change, I do not accept that we are causing significant global warming and I reject the findings of the IPCC and its local scientific affiliates.


      On the subject of the science, I note that pre-eminent 19th century physicist Lord Kelvin said to physicists at the British Association in 1900:


      There is nothing new to be discovered in physics now. All that remains is more and more precise measurement.

      Settled science indeed! Quoting ‘the science’ is the same as appeals to ‘God says’ hundreds of years ago. It is an attempt to stop debate. When I hear the likes of the member for Sydney invoking ‘the science’, as she did in her utterly unsupported claim that the Central Coast will be the area of New South Wales hardest hit by sea level rise resulting from AGW, I look for the snake oil.



      Science does not work the way that those opposite believe or would have us believe. It is strange how Al Gore, a failed student in science, is automatically accorded reverential scientific status by those opposite while they castigate the likes of Professors Bob Carter and Ian Plimer, people well qualified to talk about the science. I would happily debate the science with any member opposite but I know they are too gutless to take me on. I will take the likes of Al Gore and Tim Flannery seriously when they live the emissions-austere lifestyles they advocate for everyone else, rather than the emissions-profligate lifestyles they themselves hypocritically live.


      Still on the subject of the science, have a look at the data for Darwin. If you look at the raw data from the last 110 years, it shows that temperatures have gone down by 0.7 degrees per century. Funnily enough, after ‘homogenisation’ by the CSIRO and Bureau of Meteorology, the data magically shows an increase of 1.2 degrees per century. You wonder why I call for a royal commission!


      A whole lot of the argument for a carbon tax is premised on models, but models only have any relevance if they have predictive capacity. The reality is that this graph I am holding up shows the prediction of the IPCC’s fourth assessment report. All of their ensemble models indicated that there should have been an increase in temperatures this decade. This other graph I am now holding up is the reality according to the Hadley Climate Research Unit, the repository of the IPCC’s data.


      Initially, the so-called ‘consensus scientists’ rejected the theory that there has been no temperature increase in the last decade. They are now coming to the realisation that they have to deal with it, so we get peer reviewed papers, papers that Al Gore said did not exist, like: ‘Reconciling anthropogenic climate change with observed temperature 1998-2008′ and ‘Trend analysis of satellite global temperature data’. They both accept that there has been no temperature increase this decade. The reconciling paper suggests that maybe it is global dimming that has caused the problem. The problem is they did not do their literature survey. If they had had a look at global aerosol climatology, they would have realised there has been no change to the optical depth in the last 10 years.


      Let us look at the models. ‘Tracking earth’s energy’, by Kevin Trenberth—lead author with the IPCC, second, third and fourth assessment reports, and still a current lead author—says that we cannot explain it. I have a chart here from Kevin Trenberth showing a massive deficiency in the global net energy budget. Also by Kevin Trenberth is ‘An imperative for climate change planning: tracking earth’s global energy’. Another: ‘On the observational determination of climate sensitivity and its implications’ by pre-eminent scientist, Richard Lindzen, found that the feedbacks have been overstated. The paper on the misdiagnosis of climate feedbacks and variations found a large discrepancy between observed and stimulated precipitation.
      I have numerous papers here that I will seek to table

      [Kate Ellis was approached and refused to give permission for those papers to be put on the official parliamentary record.]


      On ocean temperature, the projections were all for increased ocean temperatures. Since the launch of the Argo network, what do we have? ‘Tracing the upper ocean’s missing heat’ acknowledges there has been no increase but in fact a decrease in ocean temperature since 2003—they cannot explain it. The ‘Importance of the deep ocean for estimating decadal changes’ accepts there has been a reduction in the globe’s ocean temperatures. ‘On the decadal rates of sea level change during the 20th century,’ by Holgate, found no acceleration of sea levels. Similarly, the paper on the dynamic response of reef islands showed that many of the islands in the Pacific have actually been increasing in area. ‘Sea-level acceleration based on US tide gauges and extensions of previous global-gauge analyses’ shows there has been no acceleration; in fact, a deceleration in sea-level rise. The conclusion from the paper ‘Is there evidence yet of acceleration in mean sea level rise around mainland Australia?’ is that, no, there has not been acceleration.


      What we see is that the peer-reviewed science is not anywhere near as solid as those opposite suggest. If the science is settled, ask the scientists if they believe we should stop funding the IPCC and anthropogenic global warming science. Let us investigate some of the science and assume that the IPCC models are correct. Even if we reach the five per cent reduction—and government figures show an increase from 580 million tonnes to 620 million tonnes by 2020, an increase not a decrease—then global average temperatures will only be a few thousandths of a degree cooler than business as usual. If we reach 50 per cent less CO2 emissions than today in 2050 and hold that to 2100, the reduction in global average temperatures will be less than one-hundredth of a degree. No wonder the government is trying to spin this policy as a clean energy bill, as it patently does nothing to address the so-called anthropogenic global warming problem. I thought that was the point of the pain associated with this tax—so a whole lot of pain for essentially no temperature reduction.


      The reality is that bankers and the like are rubbing their hands in glee at the prospects of the billions, at least, to be made in trading a commodity with no intrinsic value. Even with this tax, most Australians will maintain their current fossil fuel consumption and, more crucially, Labor’s tax will have no effect on the big polluters overseas. It should go without saying that any solutions Australia considers for global warming must have real, measurable impacts on reducing global temperatures. But it seems this point has been lost in the rhetoric and catchcry.


      We must ask the fundamental questions: will the carbon tax fulfil its purpose and energise other nations to join us and cool the globe? If not, why are we barrelling ahead? At this time of global economic uncertainty, governments and public policymakers around the world are focused on saving old jobs and creating new jobs. Why then is the government introducing job-killing legislation? The government’s own modelling acknowledges that this scheme is not enough of itself enough to reach the 2020 targets. To make up the shortfall, Australian taxpayers will be spending an estimated $3.5 billion a year by 2020 to buy foreign carbon credits. By 2050, funding going overseas for foreign carbon credits is expected to rise to $57 billion per year—the government’s own figures.


      Why are we paying any money overseas for carbon credits? Even if you accept ‘the science’, there are numerous other ways to tackle the issue, including putting money into research and development—the cheap end of the innovation pipeline. Funding for advanced energy R&D will lead to a more energy efficient future by making low-emission technologies more accessible. If we can get sustainable energy to be cheaper than fossil fuels then an economic imperative will drive industry and big business.
      Copenhagen showed us we cannot get a global approach to climate change at this time. The big polluters of the world—China, India and the US—just are not interested. The Australian government are being completely disingenuous, saying that only 500 or so companies will pay—but then again they have a complete lack of economic understanding; after all, they believe that they can tax the mining industry into greater prosperity and that instituting a carbon tax will drive green jobs. Ask Spain and California how successful that has been. If there are these wonderful opportunities waiting out there, the reality is that industry would be doing it with alacrity.


      Further, in order to change behaviour, you need alternatives to go to. In the case of electricity, apart from nuclear we have nowhere to go. We are already paying massive costs associated with a small penetration from renewables. Germany, touted by the government in terms of solar power, led the world in putting up solar panels—€47 billion in subsidies. Using IPCC models, the legacy of that bill will mean a seven-hour delay in global climate change by 2100. Regarding wind power, Denmark led the world in embracing wind power, yet their wind industry is almost completely dependent on taxpayer subsidies and the Danes pay the highest electricity prices in the world.


      When Cyclone Yasi hit Queensland, we desperately needed power due to some of those Queensland power stations shutting down. Wind in South Australia provided two megawatts out of an installed capacity of 400—some success.


      In terms of transportation there are similarly no alternatives to fossil fuels at present. Indeed the government’s scheme has a negative impact as it makes public transport less competitive than private vehicles. Trying to force carbon cuts instead of investing first in research puts the cart ahead of the horse. Then there is the whole issue of carbon leakage—that is, cement and aluminium industries going overseas, killing our industries, but still emitting carbon dioxide.


      The PM backstabbed former Prime Minister Rudd. Now she plans to backstab the Australian people, not only with legislation she promised the Australian people she would not introduce, but also by adding landmines to that legislation—with clauses such as carbon credits being personal property—to make the carbon tax harder to rescind. The Russians used scorched earth against Napoleon and against the Germans respectively when they invaded. This Prime Minister plans to use scorched earth as well, not against an invading enemy, but against the very people she purports to represent. There should always be a get-out-of-jail clause in legislation. I ask those opposite this: if the scientific view were to change to one of unanimity that we were not causing a problem on the day after this bill becomes law, what would you think of those mines placed in the legislation then? We do not have cars because we taxed flatulence from horses.


      The fact is there are things in the environment we all want—clean air, clean water, good food and reducing birth rates. Look at the countries in the world with the cleanest air, cleanest water, lowest birth rates and best food. They share affluence. Why are we attempting to make ourselves and the world less affluent.


      We are promised most Australians will be compensated for the impost of the carbon tax. Calculating the impact of the carbon tax is hard enough, but what happens when it becomes an ETS? You will have an extremely volatile price. The government is betting it will be around $30 a tonne but you can trade it down to $15 a tonne. What happens if it comes in at $15 and you are compensating at $30? Hello, taxpayer, we need some more money please for that compensation. Alternatively, if you compensate for $15 and it comes in at $30 or $45, the compensation will be totally inadequate. More taxes will be needed to cover the shortfalls.


      The whole point of this carbon tax is to change behaviour to reduce emissions, which means there must be pain if we are to move from an efficient industry to one that is less efficient. The simple fact is that the Gillard government is being deliberately disingenuous on this issue as they know full well that they will never be able to compensate the people adequately or economically when it becomes an ETS. In the national interest it is time to move past the politics of fear, such as, ‘You need to be heavily taxed or the Great Barrier Reef or Kakadu gets it!’ In conclusion, for all these and multiple other reasons, the Gillard government should not pass this legislation without the consent of Australians.


      Madam Deputy Speaker Burke, I seek leave to table these peer reviewed science reports.
      Leave not granted.
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    • Re: Labor censors Dr Dennis Jensen — denies peer reviewed science

      Hi Sherrie

      It's funny that my first post on the forum after a long hiatus should be on the topic of global warming...er, sorry, "climate change", er sorry, what's the politically correct term these days? Just like carbon tax is now carbon credit, er...carbon PRICE....ah, that's right! Now we're getting somewhere!

      Personally, I think this whole idea spawned from Al Gore's Church of Climatology "climate change" is a testament to how easily people are persuaded by absolute rubbish.

      There is no doubt in my mind that the globe as it stands is subject to climate change...not as a direct result of human interaction, but because of solar activity.

      I don't buy in the argument that humans are 100% responsible for the impending death of the Earth as some globalist, eugenics driven megalomaniacs would have you believe.

      Al Gore's "Cap and Trade" = the general populace will CAP while Al Gore TRADES.

      I do believe that we have the technology to live more sustainably, however, I think the majority of these technologies remain repressed from use because too much profit can be derived from oil/coal trade. My electricity/gas bill went up by about 12% - who profits from that? Not me!

      The introduction of carbon tax right now, in the economical state that we are in, is political suidice. If it is ever successful and becomes law, Australia will sink just like Europe is right now and just like the US already has.

      I support all your arguments Sherrie, couldn't have said it better myself.

      D
      Starting over!

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    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      Hey D :)

      It's a very important topic I think and something that everyone should read about and decide for themselves, rather then just trusting that the government know what their talking about. I think one thing low carb has taught all of us, is to question!
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    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      HI Sherrie,

      Funny too, that my first post back should be on this subject, just like D!

      I agree with everything that you have put forward.

      As someone who for years (not just since this climate change debacle reared its ugly head) has done whatever I can to reduce my impact on the environment I feel extremely frustrated and angry that once again my family will be a cash cow for the government.

      I don't think creating umpteen new government departments to impose and redistribute a tax makes economic sense. And when the trade scheme comes in it will be open to misuse as most of these things are. I agree that whenever 'creating competition' is put forward to bring costs down that has never happened in my experience, prices always go up.

      And why is population growth never mentioned in the same sentence as global warming?? Australia does not and never will have a huge resource when it comes to water and by not controlling population it will only get worse. Ah but that argument doesn't make money. :(

      If we are all so doomed, then instead of a tax why is the government not looking at ways to put solar panels and water tanks into all Australian homes?

      Gee that might be a positive thing!!! :eek:


      Kim
    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      Welcome back Kimme, you said exactly how I feel on this issue. The funny thing is, the people that harp on about it are the ones regularly flying on planes, driving everywhere they need to go etc whilst the majority of us go without because we already cannot afford such luxuries!

      Meanwhile our so called environmentally friendly Labor government, close down schools and open fewer big super schools forcing more parents on to the roads. They increase living expenses so dramatically that both parents are forced to work, ensuring families have a minimum of 2 cars with both parents constantly on the roads. They make public transport more expensive, unsafe etc.

      Did you ever look at their biggest polluters list? It's all full of education institutes, public hospitals, public transport etc

      But ultimately all these issues are all due to population, they can try and make so called cuts to carbon but this will still increase because population is ever increasing and encouraged.
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    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind


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    • Scientist who said climate change sceptics had been proved wrong accused of hiding

      Very interesting article: Scientist who said climate change sceptics had been proved wrong accused of hiding truth by colleague

      A quote to sum it up with the interesting hook in bold:


      It was hailed as the scientific study that ended the global warming debate once and for all – the research that, in the words of its director, ‘proved you should not be a sceptic, at least not any longer’.

      Professor Richard Muller, of Berkeley University in California, and his colleagues from the Berkeley Earth Surface Temperatures project team (BEST) claimed to have shown that the planet has warmed by almost a degree centigrade since 1950 and is warming continually.

      Published last week ahead of a major United Nations climate summit in Durban, South Africa, next month, their work was cited around the world as irrefutable evidence that only the most stringent measures to reduce carbon dioxide emissions can save civilisation as we know it.

      It was cited uncritically by, among others, reporters and commentators from the BBC, The Independent, The Guardian, The Economist and numerous media outlets in America.

      The Washington Post said the BEST study had ‘settled the climate change debate’ and showed that anyone who remained a sceptic was committing a ‘cynical fraud’.

      But today The Mail on Sunday can reveal that a leading member of Prof Muller’s team has accused him of trying to mislead the public by hiding the fact that BEST’s research shows global warming has stopped.

      Prof Judith Curry, who chairs the Department of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences at America’s prestigious Georgia Institute of Technology, said that Prof Muller’s claim that he has proven global warming sceptics wrong was also a ‘huge mistake’, with no scientific basis.

      Prof Curry is a distinguished climate researcher with more than 30 years experience and the second named co-author of the BEST project’s four research papers.



      Have a read of the article :)
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    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      Yup we don't pay enough for power already! :rolleyes:

      Australians pay more for power than others

      Australian households are shelling out 130 per cent more for power than Canadians and 70 per cent more than Americans, according to new research.

      The research claims Australians pay more on average than Japanese, British, French, Irish and New Zealanders, News Limited reported.

      It says that household electricity prices are already 70 per cent more than the American average - a figure set to balloon to 160 per cent in two years.

      The statistics are part of a report by the Energy Users Association of Australia (EUAA), with members that include BHP Billiton, Coles, Bluescope Steel, RailCorp and Rio Tinto.

      The executive director of the EUAA, Roman Domanski, said prices would increase once the federal government's carbon tax and locked-in price increases come into effect.

      "Add in the carbon tax from July, further network price increases and renewable energy subsidies and inevitably our prices are pushed to the point where they are challenging Denmark and Germany as the most expensive in the world," he told the Daily Telegraph.

      According to the research, which compared prices in 92 jurisdictions from more than 35 countries, NSW ranked fourth behind Denmark, Germany and South Australia.

      The state was followed by Victoria at fifth, Western Australia at sixth and the Australian Capital Territory was 21st.


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    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      To add to that, South Australia will likely be the most expensive in the WORLD possibly as early as July this year! :eek:

      South Australia's power prices set to become highest in world says Energy Users Association of Australia

      Graph for last years prices and why we so desperately need a carbon tax so people will use less electricity :eek:

      [Blocked Image: http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2012/03/21/1226305/744156-power-prices-chart.jpg]
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    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      No Need to Panic About Global Warming

      There's no compelling scientific argument for drastic action to 'decarbonize' the world's economy.



      Editor's Note: The following has been signed by the 16 scientists listed at the end of the article:


      A candidate for public office in any contemporary democracy may have to consider what, if anything, to do about "global warming." Candidates should understand that the oft-repeated claim that nearly all scientists demand that something dramatic be done to stop global warming is not true. In fact, a large and growing number of distinguished scientists and engineers do not agree that drastic actions on global warming are needed.


      In September, Nobel Prize-winning physicist Ivar Giaever, a supporter of President Obama in the last election, publicly resigned from the American Physical Society (APS) with a letter that begins: "I did not renew [my membership] because I cannot live with the [APS policy] statement: 'The evidence is incontrovertible: Global warming is occurring. If no mitigating actions are taken, significant disruptions in the Earth's physical and ecological systems, social systems, security and human health are likely to occur. We must reduce emissions of greenhouse gases beginning now.' In the APS it is OK to discuss whether the mass of the proton changes over time and how a multi-universe behaves, but the evidence of global warming is incontrovertible?"


      In spite of a multidecade international campaign to enforce the message that increasing amounts of the "pollutant" carbon dioxide will destroy civilization, large numbers of scientists, many very prominent, share the opinions of Dr. Giaever. And the number of scientific "heretics" is growing with each passing year. The reason is a collection of stubborn scientific facts.


      Read the rest here


      Interesting to see this signature:
      William Kininmonth, former head of climate research at the Australian Bureau of Meteorology
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    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      So a couple scientists made some assumptions based on shakey research while totally ignoring research to the contrary and a bunch of politicians ran with it. This reminds me of the time when they said fat was bad and everyone should stack their diets with carbs, we all know what happened with that one (or is continuing to happen)

      I never bought into global warming, even an unscientific person like myself could see the greater picture.

      One thing I have noticed is that the politicians, authorities and the media love driving fear into the population. When we had drought several years ago, every politician and media outlet was talking about our Dam being out of water in 2 years time and we would all need to drink urine. Even though I was only in my early 30's at the time, I could recall at least 2 other major droughts in my lifetime, yet polies twice my age seem to have long term memory loss, we were going to run out of water and die.

      As a kid I never understood why people said "dont trust politicians" its one of those things you really do understand when you're older. Scientists might have to be thrown into that bucket too, all depends whose pocket they are in and these days, seems like anyone with money needs scientists in their corner to champion their cause (product)
    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      Unfortunately it's the only solution our government can come up with to pay back their debt!!!! I wish we could have an election right now because once July hits, that's it. Even if the Coalition do roll it back, it's not like businesses will roll back their prices!!!! mind you if they don't roll it back, prices will keep increasing but I would prefer to not have it at all!
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    • Re: Global Warming: A Lot of Hot Wind

      Did everyone watch four corners tonight about coal seam gas and how its looking to likely be environmentally worse then coal? let alone the corruption? Thank you Greens and Labor!
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